RTTL
Printed From: BMPT Forum
Category: Boats (In alphabetical order)
Forum Name: Target Towing Launches
Forum Description: Discussion on Target Towing Launches
URL: http://www.bmpt.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=65
Printed Date: 19 March 2024 at 1:14pm
Topic: RTTL
Posted By: 2772e
Subject: RTTL
Date Posted: 14 May 2005 at 7:57am
I have an intersest in the RTTL 68 ft boats, as displayed at Henden. I have built the original Vosper Veron model, then a 1/24 scratch built, now a 1/12 scratch built. I need pictures of the deck and fittings.
Can anyone help, does anyone now if there is one other than Henden that can be viewed?
Any stories or pictures or notes would be appreciated
|
Replies:
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 9:04am
RTTL2753 Vosper 68' MkII lying Gibraltar,mostly as was when paid off.
Awaiting engines,bare interior.Name Flywood.See M/Boats Mag Jul 05 P13.
|
Posted By: 2772e
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 6:47pm
Christian,
Did not get the jist of your email can you contact me about it. Any help would be great. I am aware of Fleetwood. Is she for sale do you know?
mailto:simon.beament@btinternet.com - simon.beament@btinternet.com
Regards
|
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 03 February 2006 at 10:30pm
Interesting photos of RTTL 2756 at this address.
http://www.gan.philliptsmall.me.uk/NickFord75/Drills%20on%20 2756.htm
Cheers
------------- Don
Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?
|
Posted By: DMSmith
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 8:26pm
Just visited RAF Museum Hendon this 1/2 term and pleasantly surprised to find proper boats out front!! (Actually couldn't belive what I saw and nearly flattened the parking attendant.) One is 2757 68' Air Sea Rescue Launch the other a 64' ?? (not sure as kids dragged me off to look at jets and bombers!!). They are both cracking looking boats, what was the shorter boat? Is there any info on the website or elsewhere about them?
Was surprised to see that RAF Museum doesn't mention them in the guide or show them properly on their website. Has anyone any idea how many other land-locked exhibits there are?
They looked in pretty good condition, I wonder when they were last at sea?
If anyone can point me in the right direction it will save me having to go back and read the plaques again.
Thanks
------------- Dave
|
Posted By: 2772e
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 8:42pm
DMSmith,
2757 last saw the water in 1977, it was covered by a comemerative postcard with pictures and the story of how she got there.
If you want one they are readilly available on ebay, just set up a favorite search on rttl or 2757 and they keep popping up.
Unfortunately there is no information on 2757 in any of the museums data, i had tried when i was researching. The only mention goes back a few years on the repainting. She is in a sorry state. I had lots of correspondance with them and they sent me copies of the original handbook with pictures etc.
I ended up visiting Grenwich and viewing/copying the original blueprints.
If you want info i have spent the last 5 years collecting everthing i can on th seies 2 RTTL.
Hope this helps
Regards
Simon
Has the gantry been erected so you can wander top side?
|
Posted By: DMSmith
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 10:08pm
Hi Simon
There are some steps at the back of one of the boats, I'll remember which one when the pictures are developed. Not sure that the health and safety police would allow run of the mill visitors to wander round it though.
Sorry to hear that it actually isn't that good after all. Did you get a royal tour all round to get info for your model?
Thanks for the offer of info but time for modelling is limited to the annual Chrismas visit to the outlaws (when I best lock myself away with and Airfix MTB to save arguements, etc.) otherwise I'm engaged fixing my RCT Range Safety boat. Do you kow of any books or something more on the web about RAF boats?
Thanks for your kind response
Dave
ps Was interested on your success with Grenwich, I'm trying to get more info on my boat and don't seem to have much luck. See Seabird Class RCT CCLs posted Oct last year.
------------- Dave
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 28 February 2007 at 10:54pm
Hi Dave
This is the plaque;
The displayed speeds conversion from knots is way off, 39 knots is more like 72 km/h or 45 mph. In truth they were capable of more like 50 knots under ideal conditions.
And the boats (the 1374 boat is a 63ft Groves & Guttridge design General Service Pinnace);
Pictures of a sister Pinnace can be seen on the Boats For sale page;
http://www.bmpt.org.uk/boats%20for%20sale/Pinnace1387/index.htm - http://www.bmpt.org.uk/boats%20for%20sale/Pinnace1387/index. htm
|
Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 8:51am
Christian,
50knts?
The ideal conditions must mean down a very steep hill
------------- Pioneer - Forum Moderator
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 8:59am
Hi Ted
It surprised me a little too. The information has come from the mouth of more than one horse though, both served on these boats in their heyday and had a clear memory of this. They'd pull out the stops just after painting with new antifoul, and open them up all the way on flat water without much fuel in the tanks. Apparently it didn't do their career prospects much good if it was found out though!
2762E was apparently even quicker.
Rgds, Christian.
|
Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 9:40am
Hello Christian
I remember reading somewhere that there is a formula for determining a vessels expected top speed (something along the lines of loa x weight x beam plus displacement etc and of course the power available) 50 Knts from just under 4000hp would be stretching the figures I would guess - horses mouths? (I once lost a packet listening to them)
Best Regards
Ted
------------- Pioneer - Forum Moderator
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 12:12pm
Hi Christian and Pioneer,
I have been using a Prop/Engine/Gearbox sizing program to tryout various engine gearbox arrangments for 2753. As a check to see how accurate the software was I used known data from when the RTTL's were in service. I based the data on RR Griffons x 2 at 1800bhp at 2100rpm. The V drives had a 1.54:1 reduction and the props were 34" x 37". Assuming a very efficient planing hull (which of course it is) the program calculated a slippage of 0.11 ie 89% efficient. I based the final calculation on a displacent of 39 tons which is a fair estimate of service displacement. The result is a service speed of 39 knots which ties in with the claimed service speed.
I then made the same calculation based on a displacement of 15 tons which is what I estimate 2753 will be when engined ( the same program estimates her current displacement at 9 tons based on draft-admittedly this is a real estimate). With the same props and 3600bhp the estimated maximum speed is 62knots/72mph.
It's not unreasonable to imagine these boats in service acheiving 45 knots+. I wonder whether Vosper might have test data for these craft or 1601 which was the same hull form?
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 12:33pm
Hi d-zine
Funnily enough I bumped into one of my contacts today, I asked him if he was sure about what he'd told me and he was adamant. He said they revved the engines "over 2200 rpm" to achieve these speeds.
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 1:30pm
Hi Christian,
Refering to the Boat Histories section of the site the Article on the Braves describes the hull design as being based on 1601 (RTTL) form and that was capable of speeds in excess of 50 knots with the gas turbine installation. Obvoiusly direct comparisons cannot be drawn, however it would appear that the hull form is perfectly capable of these speeds subject to weight and power. Reference is made to the admiralty carrying out extensive trials in the Haslar Test Tank, I am sure that these would provide evidence of the theoretical maximum speed for this type of craft.
I would love to see one of these old warriors at something approaching top speed.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 2:57pm
RTTL plans for a model;
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/34-5-Boat-plans-for-VOSPER-68-RTTL_W0QQitemZ130083482027QQihZ003QQcategoryZ19166QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/34-5-Boat-plans-for-VOSPER-68-RTTL_W0Q QitemZ130083482027QQihZ003QQcategoryZ19166QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt em
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 3:11pm
From Ray, who served on them;
Hi christian,
All the info I can remember was a boat with griffons reached 45 knots but with a lot of vibration from the back end, I would like to have been on board
And from Donald Smith, RAF Marine Craft Historian;
Regarding the top speed of the RTTLs, with a dry boat just off the slip 41-41 knots was achievable, until the hull soaked up water and they reverted to 39 knots. We had one boat 2762E later 2772E and finally 2772 which originally could touch 50 knots. This was before her bottom was re-skinned with mahogany which slowed her down to a more standard performance.
Hats off to Ted.
Rgds, Christian.
|
Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 5:33pm
Hello Christian and d-zine,
I am one of those unfortunate people that has a 'cup half empty' as opposed to one being 'half full' - I'm constantly told by my better half. - 1601 was an experimental MTB (not an RTTL) the Hull being similar in form derived from the Vosper Launch 'Swordfish' The Hull's capabilty is not in question but the amount of power required to drive it to 50 Knts is beyond the delivery of twin Griffons I still believe. Although we are talking of completely different vessels - the 'Braves had 3 x 3,600hp GT's for its superb performance figures while 'Ferocity' had 2 x up-rated GT's (4200hp) and even that did not quite match a Brave (but very close indeed).
Regards Ted
------------- Pioneer - Forum Moderator
|
Posted By: DMSmith
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 10:00pm
Christian
Thanks for the helping me again, this time saving me a retun trip. (Although I'll go back sometime as I'm only an hour or so from Hendon.) Is 2757 the only complete one left?
Fascinated by the discussion on top speed, guess the question is what sort of log was used?
Cheers
Dave
------------- Dave
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 10:14pm
Hi Dave,
2748 is nearing the completion of a comprehensive restoration.(Plymouth)
2751 is also under restoration and looks quite close to original appearance( Guernsey)
2753 is close to original but missing various bits and pieces(Gibraltar)
2757 is the Hendon boat
2758 has undergone a complete conversion to a very smart looking motor yacht.(Malta)
2768 when last seen looked original but in very poor condition (Malta).
2770 has had her wheel house extended aft but is in otherwise good condition.(Dumbarton)
2771 when last seen was a hulk (Malta).
There should be pictures posted elsewhere on the site for most of the boats mentioned above.
2754 sank in 1975/6 some way off Gibraltar.
2762/2772e was BU in Middlesborough in 1996 I think.
As for the others information would be welcome
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 01 March 2007 at 11:09pm
Hi Dave
They used the venerable and accurate Chernikeef logs.
Hi d-zine
All I can add is 2760 was at Hooe Lake, Plymouth until BU mid 90s. Also suspected Vosper RTTL washed ashore by Asian tsunami, still unconfirmed though.
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 8:03am
Hi Christian,
Heard about the RTTL possibly washed ashore in Banda Aceh following the Tsunami. I have looked at all the news feeds that I can find and so far all I have turned up are steel launches of about the same size.
Boat 1
Boat 2
Has one of these been confused with an RTTL or have I missed one somewhere?
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 8:44am
Hi d-zine
I did the same search apparently, your blue hull photo looks like the one being investigated, but does not resemble an RTTL from this angle...
This other one certainly does look like a '50s Vosper build (save the apparently horizontal planking) they used to have a yard in Singapore so it could have been built there.
|
Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 12:38pm
Hi Guys,
Spotted your posts all the way at the bottom of the forum, as I said before, much going on elsewhere but need a good spread of topics, and albeit in very sad circumstances, photos of these craft most interesting, as yo say, a number of UK desinged vessels built under licence abroad, and a number of course of UK built vessel now abroad also, went to a conference in London and a very interesting presenation on a WW2 ship HMS Whimbrel in Egypt now the Tarek, looking to get her back to Liverpool. All good stuff,
John
|
Posted By: 2772e
Date Posted: 02 March 2007 at 10:06pm
I seem to remember that Vosper offered their hard chine hull to the Malasian police for a fast launch. I think it was about 100ft long. Whilst the hull looked similar the bow chine was slightly higher. Not to be confused with the RTTL's
Regards
Simon
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 18 May 2007 at 6:47am
Hi folks,
for the record, the Mk.1A RTTL was powered by three Napier Sea Lions using wing props of 26"dia x 22.5" pitch, and centre prop of 21.5"dia x 16.7" pitch. When converted to MK2 all had twin L/H props of 33" dia x 37" pitch. The gearboxes were V drives at 1.54 -1. The performance of the Mk.2 was as follows.
Max speed- 39 knots., Cruising speed 33.3 knots @ 2000rpm., Continuous cruising speed 30 knots @ 1800rpm. Range was 530 miles on full tanks of 2200 gallons(later tank system)
All RAF craft had L/H props except for Pinnace 1381 when she was an experimental boat with Thornycroft gearboxes in place of the standard Mathway type, and the two Turbo charges Pinnaces 1391 and 1392. I also recall one 43ft RSL being tested with Thornycroft gearboxes but will have to dig out her number.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 05 June 2007 at 11:25pm
RTTL Model 2754 on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MODEL-BOAT-LAUNCH-IN-RAF-COLOURS_W0QQi temZ150128885061QQihZ005QQcategoryZ140971QQssPageNameZWDVWQQ rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
If the link is bad, the item number is
15012888506
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 19 June 2007 at 11:48pm
Only One RTTL ever achieved 50kt plus that was 2772E in her early days. well before I joined marine branch. I served on 2758/68/71 in Malta, and occasionally on the one in Gan in 1973 which number escapes me at the moment. I am still in contact with others that served on RTTLs and with hand on heart and inter boat Bull**** aside depending on hull condition a max of 37-40 kt would be the norm if you were lucky, on the odd occasion when we were allowed to override the governors and get a few more revs the fastest I have ever been on in a 'ttl was 43kt, how the coxswain measured that was a mystery as the Chernikeef log was showing a constant light or flashing so fast that it looked constant. That boat was 2771 shortly after a re-deck in 1969, she was weed free and light. There was A very good reason that we did not do those speeds very often, the fuel consumption was ridiculous, you could be dragging nearly 200gph per engine per hour. The other reason was of course that if there was any kind of sea running it was damned uncomforable. 30kt was a good cruising speed; until of course you saw a frigate there were not many skippers that could resist the temptation of doing a few 40kt circles round a frigate.
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 19 June 2007 at 11:55pm
Those pictures of beached boats are not TTL's
picture attached is 2768 at about 38kt. The skipper was Fl/lt Fosh, later to be Gp/capt, and DMC. M/Coxswain Sammy Hall, the fitters on the engine hatch Ch/techTom Weldon and nearest camera, little ol' me. The first RTTL I ever was operational on.
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 4:28pm
DMSmith wrote:
Just visited RAF Museum Hendon this 1/2 term and pleasantly surprised to find proper boats out front!! (Actually couldn't belive what I saw and nearly flattened the parking attendant.) One is 2757 68' Air Sea Rescue Launch the other a 64' ?? (not sure as kids dragged me off to look at jets and bombers!!). They are both cracking looking boats, what was the shorter boat? Is there any info on the website or elsewhere about them?
Was surprised to see that RAF Museum doesn't mention them in the guide or show them properly on their website. Has anyone any idea how many other land-locked exhibits there are?
They looked in pretty good condition, I wonder when they were last at sea?
If anyone can point me in the right direction it will save me having to go back and read the plaques again.
Thanks
The other boat is a 63' Pinnace, the workhorse of marine
branch.
Powered by 2 RR C6 diesels either turbocharged or supercharged, the one in the picture is the turbo version. 16-17kts |
|
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 5:11pm
cofrada, nice to see another server on the site like webfoot with practical experience of RTTL's, I have the throttle box off 2772E as she was scrapped locally, during my research on this boat it appears that she may have had uprated engines when new whilst Vosper "showboated" her and she also appears to have carried test equipment, but as you say thrashing about at 40kts is very hard on the petrol and the crew's innards.
|
Posted By: Pioneer
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 5:32pm
Hello Tramontana
You must recognise this then?
------------- Pioneer - Forum Moderator
|
Posted By: 2772e
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 7:27pm
The last date 2757 sailed was 26th November 1977 and she was shipped to RAF Hendon 4th December 1977.
She has been tarted up numerous times since but this is only cosmentic, under the skin a different story!
She is all original i understand.
Regards
Simon
|
Posted By: DMSmith
Date Posted: 20 June 2007 at 8:29pm
Thanks Gentlemen for the info. I've been following the thread with great interest and realise now that there are a few RTTLs about and some of the owners are members of the forum. (Good luck to you, they are beautiful boats).
Great picture, Cofrada, of 2768 and the Pinnace in action.
Realize now that the Hendon exhibit looks great outside but may be another story within. If the decks leak then perhaps she should be covered? (ie on display in a hangar). However at least back in '77 someone had the foresight to save her and she can be a point of reference for other rebuilds.
((BTW very impressed with the record keeping and knowledge of RAF team (rafwebfoot), only sorry that Army (my lot) have less comparative info. although have done their best to advise.))
------------- Dave
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 10:06am
tramontana wrote:
cofrada, nice to see another server on the site like webfoot with practical experience of RTTL's, I have the throttle box off 2772E as she was scrapped locally, during my research on this boat it appears that she may have had uprated engines when new whilst Vosper "showboated" her and she also appears to have carried test equipment, but as you say thrashing about at 40kts is very hard on the petrol and the crew's innards. |
I cannot be sure of this, (I am too young) but I believe that when 72E was launched it did have a more powerful variant of the Griffon, it also was of a different construction, I was told years ago what it was but, I've forgotten now, it was 40years ago. But she was lighter than 2750-2771 by a good bit and could achieve speeds of 40kt+ when loaded. TTL's carried 2220galls of AVGAS about 10ton I think that would give you about 500km at "economical" cruising speed.
An abiding memory of Malta was, we were always refuelling, if we went target towing for the Shackletons or later Nimrods, we always had to refuel every couple of days, we were 1st line SAR.
On one occasion Alitalia & BEA suspended flights into Malta because there were no serviceable RTTLs, two up the slip and 2768 blew an exhaust bend. From going U/S to being declared serviceable was 12 hours, that included the time it took to get an exhaust bend from Mountbatten to Malta. Helicopter from Mountbatten to Chivenor, Canberra, Chivenor to Malta. J2 Luqa to Marsaxlokk.
I've digressed, apart from the discomfort at high speed another reason not to thrash the bottom out of a TTL was precisely that, not to thrash the bottom out of them. although they were immensely strong one problem was that they took most of the stress on the starboard side, because the props were not handed, both R/H rotation they went through the water heading slightly to starboard. If you ever go to Hendon again, have a look at the rudders, they have little trimtabs fitted to help offset the effect of the propwash.
The boats at Hendon are being looked after by volunteers mainly from the London & SE Branch of the Air/Sea Rescue and Marine Branch Sections Club, they dont get much assistance from the Museum who dont seem that interested because they didn't fly, and are also being thwarted by health and safety regs about working at that height without guardrails on the RTTL.
|
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 11:35am
The saving of 2757 may well be down to a Mr Ken Hunter who worked/ works for the R.A.F. museum he also keeps A.S.R. records and is always keen to share info about the Marine Branch as indeed we on this Forum are although because of his work he is not alway's at Hendon. 2772E was composite of marine alloy and GRP with a bit of wood when built, that is why she was so fast however due to her high speed run's the alloy chine started to deform and a lot of wood was added to reduce damage to the chine which slowwwwed her down to the normal build R.T.T.L. speed. She was the only one built that way for the R.A.F. although Vosper's did build other composite boats for other People/Navies. I did try to get other Museum's interested in saving her because she was unique but as member's of this Forum are fast finding out saving an old boat require's shed load's of money which even the Museum's were unable to lay their hands on so for a private individual it can only end in heartache unless they can guess the right number's!!
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 21 June 2007 at 1:12pm
Hi,
a wee correction here, the props on the TTLs were Left Handed, hence the torque re-action damage to the starboard bottom skins. RTTL 2772 ex 2772E ex 2762E ex 2762 was an experimental boat built by Vospers to trial the Sea Griffon installation, and the composite construction methods. She was alloy framed, with GRP topsides and alloy bottom. The bottom was over sheathed with GRP which degraded so much that it had to be removed. The bottom was later re-skinned with d/d mahogany which slowed her down to a similar speed as the rest of the fleet.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 12:12am
rafwebfoot wrote:
Hi,
a wee correction here, the props on the TTLs were Left Handed, hence the torque re-action damage to the starboard bottom skins. RTTL 2772 ex 2772E ex 2762E ex 2762 was an experimental boat built by Vospers to trial the Sea Griffon installation, and the composite construction methods. She was alloy framed, with GRP topsides and alloy bottom. The bottom was over sheathed with GRP which degraded so much that it had to be removed. The bottom was later re-skinned with d/d mahogany which slowed her down to a similar speed as the rest of the fleet.
|
Oops! you are absolutely correct Don, I should have remembered, I have removed and replaced enough TTL props, but not for about 32years.
I think that one of the only times I went on '72E was in 1967 when I was on my mech's course, Ivor Henry, our instructor took us on to show us what the layout of a TTL was like, being a one off, the engine room layout was different to the others, and from memory the fuel tank arrangement was different too.
|
Posted By: 2772e
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 7:48am
Hi Guys,
Good to read all the comments about the web foots that actually sailed on them. I would love to hear of any stories!
You opinion on my attempt at an RTTL please?
Regards
Simon
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 22 June 2007 at 1:14pm
reference 2772, her original three fuel tanks were replaced with the five tank system in late 1961 at Mount Batten.
Hello 2772E, your model looks good but I would like to see some closer detail shots before commenting further. I can be reached at mailto:rafwebfoot@aol.com - rafwebfoot@aol.com
All the best
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 14 July 2007 at 2:52pm
Hello all... im sure i must know some of the people posting on here.. im ex Marine Craft myself, in fact i served on 2757 until 1975 when i was posted to Gibraltar. I was crew on 2754 while there but was fortunate enough not to be on board the fateful day she sank (it was a saturday so they took the Duty Crew instead of the normal crafts crew)
Just to chip in a little on the top speed attained by a RTTL.... after '54 sank she was replaced by 2752 which had been in dry storage at the Gunboat yard at Haslar for donkeys years.. she arrived in Gib. as deck cargo on some freighter and was offloaded at the dockyard and bought round to the unit by one of the RMAS tugs... it was interesting to see all the proper slinging gear for an RTTL... it certainly took some removing!! We straight away slipped her so all the underwater gear, props, shafts rudders etc could be installed, they had been stowed in the sickbay for the trip to Gib. Whilst applying a new coat of antifouling we discovered a small repair had been done to the area around where the starboard prop shaft went through the hull.. that itself turned into a major job for the 2 unit boatwrights to fabricate a new plummer block as it turned out that there had been no anti toredo shields fitted and the lil devils had done their work years ago.. On putting her back in the water we were surprised to find that she took very little water considering she had been in dry storage for years. In fact the most water in the bilges came when we checked the morning after filling the freshwater tank and finding the tank was empty and the bilges quite full, a lot of the riveting had sprung... solution... remove the tank altogether!!! (no easy task if you've never had to do it before)
But to get to the main point.... after a couple of short test runs to ensure all ok with engines, steering etc it was decided one morning while coming back from the usual morning temp. dips run to open her up and see what she could do... it was worked out at just over the 50kt mark, possibly hitting 53kts briefly... admittedly, she was light on fuel and no water (2 jerry cans doesn't really count!!) plus she was as dry as a bone. She also rattled like hell!!
|
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 11:13am
Hello barnacle and welcome to the site, as a person who has served on the launches although you have not said whether you were deck or engineroom do you have any info on the "G" plate posted by pioneer earlier in this section? As you are aware 2772E was mainly a test boat and the plate apparently came off her, have you come across anything like it whilst you were serving on the launches?
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 1:40pm
hello there Tramontana, thanks for the greeting.. i was deck department.. at the time an MBC. As for the 'G' plate , i had heard of it before but had never seen one.. i certainly dont remember one on '57 but one of the older MBC's on her told me that the RTTL's used to be fitted with 'G' meters... at the time i remember thinking maybe i should take that bit of info with a pinch of salt. '72E was long gone by the time i came into the Marine Branch (1972), when i 1st arrived at 'Batten i have a vague memory of one of the old sweepers and an old 3 leg pinnace being sat on the moorings, the pinnace was being converted as i recall but what happened to the sweeper is anyones guess.. I do recall that at the time both '51 and '57 were in service and '48 was in the hanger in storage. I think this was the period before '51 became the test bed for all the spare RR engines.. i certainly remember when that happened because i had a definite dislike of going on her because, as with all things when the engineers are left a free hand and no one to clean up after them, she was like a floating scrap heap, bits of engines lying about the sickbay, half empty oil drums all over the place, all sorts of grease and oil all over everything, you know the routine.... I did read a while back that '48 was at a museum in Bristol and then later that she was undergoing a rebuild... anyone got any info on that? I was in Bristol recently and the museum is now closed undergoing a refurbishment and not reopening till 2009 apparently
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:41pm
Hi barnacle,
She is under private ownership and as I understand it 2748 is under restoration in Plymouth (Mountbatten) at the moment. She should be back in the water by now.
PM me if you want to know more I have the owners contact details.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:45pm
Hi barnacle,
When you were out in Gib on 2754/2752 did you ever serve on 2753?
I would be interested in any stories or photographs relating to her last years in service.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 4:12pm
Hi barnacle,
Image of 2748 taken I believe by the owner during restoration.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 6:32pm
Hi d-zine
I only ventured onto 53 a couple of times. i was crew on 54 and never the twain shall meet shall we say... 53 was withdrawn from service and parked at the side of the slipping area so that prospective buyers could look her over.. she was replaced by a pinnace (1380 i think.. someone help me on that one please) Incidentally, the night 54 sank, the pinnace was actually out of the water on a scheduled refit and had to be refloated as soon as we could..no tractor available at that time on a saturday night so it was all shoulders to the wheel.. or to the cradle to be precise, until gravity on the slipway took over and she was soon in the water and alongside..
I remember wandering around 2748 a couple of times while she was in the hanger, one of the things that sticks in my mind was the internal passageway inside the superstructure.. something id not seen on any of the later MkII's at least you didn't have to go on deck to get to the wheelhouse, i wonder why thy did away with it...
I can tell you that the mast currently belonging to 2748 isnt actually hers!! the original is on 57
Where is she parked at Batten? i spent years there and thought i knew the camp inside out.. i dont recognise where she is..
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 8:16pm
Hi Barnacle
GSP 1391 replaced RTTL 2753 at Gibraltar.
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 9:00pm
Hi barnacal,
The photo is pre Batten, I believe that she now has a mooring at Batten where the restoration is being completed.
When was 2753 withdrawn from service?
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 15 July 2007 at 9:30pm
ah.,.... 1391, yes, that seems to ring a bell.. thanks for that Christian... incidentally, we had her sister 1392 here in N Wales for a number of years.. until she was transferred to Plymouth anyway. If anyones interested, and if i can find them, i have pictures of 1374's last trip... being towed from the boatyard to the dock for lift out before heading for Hendon
Ive been racking my brains for the end for 53 it was either late 75 or early 76... better than that i cant say without asking a few questions of the guys who were out there with me. I remember 1391 arrived in Gib whilst i was back in UK on leave...
Looks like '48 is having her gunnell replaced.. whats the betting they have to replace the chine as well.. they were always detaching themselves
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:19pm
Hi folks,
2753 was S.O.C. (struck off charge) on 8/4/75 on Allotment No. MC/10/75 and handed over to Royal Navy Small Craft Disposals.
1392 is now based at Grimsby and called SPITFIRE.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:38pm
Hi Donald,
While out working on Flywood at the beginning of the month a previous owner of the boat made himself known to me. I believe that he was the owner prior to selling to Sheppard's Circa 1990/91. He used her for high speed runs out of Morocco, he explained that she was only used a couple of times a year and only when the weather was to bad for the helicopters and military launches to operate. He followed on by saying that she was the strongest boat that he had ever had.
I had always thought that she had been caught during one of these cruises, but it would appear that one of the Packard Merlin's (bought from Harry Pounds at 100 quid a throw) was overheating so he decided to pull the engines and install 10 v8 outboard motors. This proposed installation consisted of 5 on the transom and 5 in a well formed in the engine room, mercifully these alterations never took place. Instead the owner bought a purpose built boat and fitted 8 v8 outboards across the transom(top speed 70knots), still quite a legendary boat in Gib judging by the number of photo's I have seen.
I now know that the mast and the flying bridge fairing are on the seabed near her old mooring, if they are still there he will lift them for me although I do not hold out much hope after 20 years in the sea.
I will post a few pics shortly.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 1:43pm
Hi Donald,
When Flywood 2753 was sold out of service she was sold less engines. Where would these engines have gone, would they have been in reserve for the remaining boats in service or would they just have been disposed of separate from the boat ( Harry Pounds Perhaps).
I had heard that Pounds had 2753's original RR Griffon 101's, I don't know whether this is correct.
Was selling boats out of service less engines standard procedure?
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:27pm
When I was at Gib a couple of years ago I spoke to a chap who told me about the outboard set up fitted on Flywood but after checking with Christian I understand it never happened, he confirmed that another boat was used with the multi outboard set up instead, as far as launches being sold with/without engine's there doesn't appear to be any fixed rule on it, 2677 was sold with her Sea Lion's still fitted I suppose it could depend on as to whether they wanted to retain engines as spare's certainly Pounds had a number of them at one time but the American's were buying large number's of surplus Griffon's both aircraft and marine from the sales at Stafford a few years ago, as to whether they were for Tractor pulling or marine use I couldn't say, Don't forget Don Arrownow? who designed the beautiful Cigarette hulls was thought to have been backed by the Big M which was most probably why he was shot unfortunatly, are you looking for a pair of Griffon's?
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 3:05pm
Hi again,
lots of our old boats were sold minus their engines and by the mid 1970s these were held in reserve by stores as replacement units. It would have been the stores section that sold them on. Also by this time all servicing/spares etc was under RN control and they operated 2770 on the Clyde which seemed to be constantly needing new Griffons.
On another tack, 'G' meters were fitted for trials purposes. They were also fitted to 2748 (if my memory serves me correctly) when running comparison tests with the BPC Hants & Dorset while trying to resolve the bottom damage caused by torque reaction and hull slamming. The tests showed that the BPC craft did not lift their bows as high as the Vospers which gave them a softer entry. It was after these trials that trimming wedges were fitted to the Vosper RTTLs, along with a third bottom skin. I will check boat numbers tonight.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 3:48pm
At the moment only in my dreams.
Just trying to work out how Flywood has arrived at her current condition (stripped but solid and intact)
Trying to trace all the pieces.
I imagine that it will be hell of a problem trying to locate intact ventilators and other items of deck equipment.
I don't suppose that there are any significant remains form the boats scrapped in the uk.eg 2772 in the North East?
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:15pm
If i remember correctly.. all engines and engine spares were located at RNSD Copenacre... hull fittings etc were held at RNSD Eaglescliffe until its closure when they were all transferred to Portsmouth Dockyard. Something seems to be sticking in my mind that 53 was sold with engines installed and after she left the owner bought her back and asked for them to be removed
Webfoot, are you sure that was the date that 53 was SOC?... i arrived out there 5th April 75...and she was certainly in use for quite a while after that... maybe MoD forgot to tell Gib what they had done.. lol. I know 53 spent a lot of time on a mooring before being removed from the water and being laid up at the side of the slipping compound
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 8:33pm
Hi all,
yes I am positive of the date, it is taken from the official Disposal list, and the entry number is 321.
Reference the 'G' force meters (or Accelerometers). These were usually of the Langham Thompson type, connected to Hartmann and Braun recorders which produced a direct trace on sensitised paper by means of mirrored galvanometers coupled to mercury vapour lamps , to produce the pin point light source for recording. The Accelerometer was fitted to the forward Sickbay bulkhead, with the power supply in the Sickbay, and the recorder was fitted in the Skippers cabin aft of the wheelhouse.
The slamming/trim trials I mentioned earlier, were carried out off Newhaven during September and November 1957, by MK2. RTTL 2758 and Hants & Dorset 2631. The proved conclusively that the older boats trimmed better than their successors, and trim wedges of 2.5 degrees were subsequently fitted to the MK.2s. To prove the original findings, further tests were carried out with 2756 (with trim wedges) and 2759 (without) the results verified the earlier findings.
I doubt very much if any fittings remain from 2772, but Tramontana would know better than me.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 8:34pm
Hi barnacle,
Do you recall who the initial sale was made too. I have been told that the Victory Brothers operated smuggling boats out of Gibraltar and that they fitted Packard V12's (don't know if they were Merlins or not) because the rest of the boats that they operated used the same engines.
Does this match your recollections.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 9:08pm
all i remember of that was that she was at Shephards marina.. who the actual owner/buyer was i cant recall
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 10:17pm
Thanks to the both of you for clearing up a little more of 2753's History.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 16 July 2007 at 10:25pm
The only thing left of 2772 is the throttle box which is in my shed, I did have the ships wheel but I gave that to Dave Wright (previous owner of 1502) who sent it along with 1502 to B.M.P.T., It most probably ended in a skip, all her other fittings were auctioned off including those expensive gearboxes and went for scrap price . The "G" plate previously featured apparently came off 2772 so I am presuming they did similiar tests with her having a composite hull to see how she compared. It has turned out that a lot of stuff was buried at Eaglescliffe and the new owner's have to do a survey before they build on it, although at the risk of repeating myself the American's were very keen on Griffon's and were buying them up when they were put up for sale a few years ago, I would think the only marine one's left are in museum's but you never know with the M.O.D. I went to an auction only a couple of years ago and they were selling blankets off from the first World War!!
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 7:51am
A photo of 2756 with 3 degree wedges and 2759 with none undergoing trials as per Donald's post can be seen here, scroll down the page a little;
http://www.bmpt.org.uk/boat%20histories/brave%20class/page_two.htm - http://www.bmpt.org.uk/boat%20histories/brave%20class/page_t wo.htm
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:08pm
i see that the text accompanying that pic mentions a cine film.. now that would be something to see..i wonder if it still exists? talking of films, which we wernt, and this probably isnt the right part of the forum to mention it.. but here goes anyway, does anyone remember a Public Information Film shown on the tv in the early 70's of an RTTL and its crew 'scrambling' to react to some emergency? i believe it was filmed in Cyprus
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:14pm
No but tell me more, it sounds like compulsive viewing for me.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 6:50am
Hi folks,
the 30 minute film was made in 1972 by the MOD for recruiting and information services. Entitled THE ROYAL AIR FORCE AFLOAT, is was an overview of the Marine Branch and depicted RSLs., Pinnaces., RTTLs (both wood and tin types).,SEAL class., Marine Tenders etc., It showed the work of the Branch at home and overseas with the "Crash Call" you mention taking place at Gan. This part of the film was also incorporated in another official film -THE LONELY MEN OF CORAL COMMAND which gave an insight into service life on the Attol. There were other B/W films made over the years for training purposes showing boat handling with Seaplane Tenders and Refuellers.
RAF Marine Craft were also used in commercial films - the two RTTLs at Malta were used in the film HELL BOATS converted to MTBs, manned by RAF crews dressed as naval matelots along with the 'film stars'. Hants & Dorsets from Felixstowe were used in THE SEA SHALL NOT HAVE THEM., and Whalebacks from Newhaven in FOR THOSE IN PERIL. The RSL from Gibraltar was used in the film abour Commander Crabbe (I forget its name) and a 60' GS Pinnace was seen briefly in the film about sinking the TIRPITZ when the captured X-Craft crews were taken ashore from the German battleship.
Fair winds
Donald
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 7:47am
The movie was called The Silent Enemy.
The man;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Crabb - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Crabb
The movie;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silent_Enemy_%28film%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silent_Enemy_%28film%29
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 11:22am
Hi Donald,
I have just found the following details from the web about HELL BOATS. This explains a picture that I have of 2768 with Torpedo tubes and Guns fitted. I had always imagined that it was a sales hack for Vosper or the MOD.
Here are a couple of posters showing MTB's that are unmistakably RTTL's
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 11:51am
Hi
Here is the image of 2768 that I mentioned. I had always assumed that it was a promo by Vosper to try and secure additional sales.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 12:15pm
The torpedo tubes look like the real thing, I wonder if they're still lying around in a shed somewhere in Malta, they'd look an absolute treat mounted on Ambra...
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 12:44pm
Hi again,
I knew a lot of the RAF guys who were in the film, it was shown on TV about six months ago so I mamaged to get it on DVD. I also have a lot of stills taken when they were making Hell Boats. I seem to recall the torpedo tubes and guns were all dummies. The film was pretty crap really but it did show some good shots of our boats.
I keep trying to upload pics but all mine are too high a resolution to post but if anyone wants copies I can e-mail them direct.
Fair winds,
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 12:46pm
Hi Donald,
If you want to e-mail photo's to me I will reduce them to below 50k using photoshop so that you can post as you see fit.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 1:39pm
I saw the film 'silent enemy' a few weeks ago, there is a lot of footage of a seaplane tender (1661?) from memory probably wrong number..
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 2:09pm
1661 is the right number, she was as Donald said an RSL (Range Safety Launch) as opposed to a Seaplane tender.
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 3:41pm
lets not forget that the Halifax appeared in the tv series Secret Army.. night time shot of her apparently landing a secret agent on a foreign shore
|
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 4:50pm
ah, that is my inferior knowledge showing me up again, I should read posts more thoroughly!
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 5:04pm
Hi Clive, here she is pictured in Gibraltar;
|
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 5:16pm
they are a lovely looking boat, it is a pity there are not many of them,
is there a list of surviving rsl's or st's?
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 7:25pm
Hi folks,
if you buy my wee book POST WAR RAF MARINE CRAFT it lists all survivors and their last known locations. £6.50 + £1.00 P/P.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 8:32pm
Hi Donald, Put me down for a copy. How and where can I pay? Thanks
------------- Don
Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame?
|
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 18 July 2007 at 9:12pm
ah I have just managed to delete all my private messages and cannot retreve them!
put me down for one too please Donald.
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/
|
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 9:21pm
Great book Donald,
well worth a read, Thanks.
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 10:05pm
Topic RTTL has just had its 2772 visitor.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 11:30pm
was it an E visitor by any chance?
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 9:36am
Hope 2772 will not be the last visitor in the smae way 2772 was the last wooden RTTL .
Fair winds
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 30 July 2007 at 11:19am
Hi Clive, my current work in progress RSL 1661;
|
Posted By: barnacle
Date Posted: 30 July 2007 at 6:07pm
Cracking model Christian.. just as i remember them.... excellent work
Is it a static model or is it RC ?
|
Posted By: Christian
Date Posted: 30 July 2007 at 7:29pm
Why, thank you. It'll be finished soon. It is actually from a 1/24th scale Deans Marine kit, some modifications are required to achieve a realistic looking model. The kit includes a GRP hull, vac-formed deckhouse, fittings including the unique vents, decals (for RSL 1640) and a GA drawing. This one is powered by two very small electric motors (which sit low enough to allow a detailed interior to be incorporated into the lift-off superstructure assembly above them) and has 2 channel radio control. You can see more of my scratch-built efforts here-scroll down to the "links of interest" at the bottom (I'm really not used to building from a kit, to be honest once you've modified everything to your liking it is not much less work than a scratch-build);
http://www.bmpt.org.uk/modelling_boats/index.htm - http://www.bmpt.org.uk/modelling_boats/index.htm
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 30 July 2007 at 8:33pm
Yes Christian she looks just the job, they were lovely boats, very tough and good in a seaway.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 30 July 2007 at 9:17pm
Hi Christian, she looks as good as in the film.
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/
|
Posted By: panchottl
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 6:59pm
Hi All,
First post , so please excuse any mistakes!!
I am sure I read on a previous post, of a ttl being restordin Plymouth.
Any info please?
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 8:04pm
Hi panchottl,
RTTL 2748 has been under restoration in the Plymouth area for several years. I talked to a friend the other day who tells that she is now back in the water next to Mount Batten across the water from the Barbican. I am down next weekend so I will try to take some pictures.
RTTL 2751 is under restoration in Shoreham. See elsewhere on the forum.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: panchottl
Date Posted: 31 July 2007 at 10:39pm
Thanks d-zine
Would appreciate any further info. Will watch on the form.
All the best Chris
|
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 09 August 2007 at 5:36pm
Hi panchottl,
I have just received confirmation that RTTL 2748 is moored at a pontoon adjacent to Mountbatten. She is reported as being a hull only but beautifully finished and at the moment without the superstructure. I am awaiting photo's and additional information as a friend owns the adjoining boatyard and will follow up for me.
------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly
|
Posted By: Jacmac
Date Posted: 15 September 2007 at 6:02pm
Hello
I've been to Mountbatten 2 weeks ago and 2748 now has her
superstructure fitted. Couldnt take any photos at the time -
sorry. I'm down Plymouth way in the next week so will take some and
post them for those who are interested.
PS - Last weekend I was walking at Start Point on Sunday afternoon and
a later steel ex RAF RTTL steamed by heading towards Salcombe. Anybody
know which one? I see Spitfire appears to have been sold now, was it
her?
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 15 September 2007 at 6:42pm
By sheer coincidence I was at Mt Batten on the 9th of Sept.When Itook these.
|
Posted By: Barryg
Date Posted: 17 September 2007 at 11:39pm
Posting these pictures for a76njk of 2571 at Shoreham waiting to start her refit
|
Posted By: Barryg
Date Posted: 17 September 2007 at 11:39pm
Posted By: Barryg
Date Posted: 17 September 2007 at 11:46pm
If anyone is interested in Sabre I will be posting a few pictures not seen before after her collision.
|
Posted By: cofrada
Date Posted: 18 September 2007 at 5:22am
Barry, are you sure that is 2571, and not 2751, judging by the superstructure and mast it's a Mk 2, a slip of the finger on keyboard
|
Posted By: rafwebfoot
Date Posted: 18 September 2007 at 7:20pm
Hi folks,
yes I reckon Barry's finger slipped as the pic definately shows 2751. Just as an aside 2571 was also a Vosper but a wartime 73 footer. !5 were built using a shortened 'Fairmile' D type hull. These were the only boats Vosper suppiled to the RAF during the conflict. All were disposed of in 1946 and nothing is known of their fate or subsequent history. Photo of one of the class attached.
------------- FAIR WINDS AND A FAVOURABLE TIDE
Donald
|
|