Sea Plane tenders
Printed From: BMPT Forum
Category: General Discussion
Forum Name: Where Are Those Boats Now
Forum Description: Tell everybody where those old boats are
URL: http://www.bmpt.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=158
Printed Date: 26 March 2026 at 11:42pm
Topic: Sea Plane tenders
Posted By: johnk
Subject: Sea Plane tenders
Date Posted: 24 May 2006 at 8:24am
|
Hello, Regards "bobster" and sea plane tenders, I posted under "sea plane tenders" that there is what I am lead to believe is one here in Kent, ashore, bare hull, however been ashore a good while and would need carefull examination, points raised re hull planking most relavent. Boat yard number Whitton Marine 01634 250593. might need some persistance to get through. John
|
Replies:
Posted By: Bobster
Date Posted: 24 May 2006 at 8:56pm
|
Hi John Thanks for Info - I will give them a call. Cheers. Bob. |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 08 June 2007 at 12:30pm
|
Anyone seen this one before? http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.copyright-free-pictures.org.uk/ships-boats/john-harriott-river-taxi.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.copyright-free-pictures.org.uk/ships-boats/56-john-harriott-river-taxi.htm&h=250&w=350&sz=26&hl=en&start=96&um=1&tbnid=l-kHlVjrHPbXYM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Draf%2Brescue%2Blaunch%26start%3D80%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4HPNN_en___GB226%26sa%3DN - http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.copyrigh t-free-pictures.org.uk/ships-boats/john-harriott-river-taxi. jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.copyright-free-pictures.org.uk/ ships-boats/56-john-harriott-river-taxi.htm&h=250&w= 350&sz=26&hl=en&start=96&um=1&tbnid=l-kH lVjrHPbXYM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3D raf%2Brescue%2Blaunch%26start%3D80%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10% 26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4HPNN_en___GB226%26sa%3DN looks to be doing a god job! I just noticed it was not originally an ST but I'll post it anyway! ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 2:31pm
|
I am considering using an epoxy as part of a solution on the hull of ST365 and I'd really appreciate any advice anyone has. The problems: 1). A lot of ice damage along the whole waterline of the boat. 2). Timbers have dried a lot out even though I've soaked her with sprinkler. 3). The WW2 vintage brass screws are breaking off 90% of the time when you try to remove them which shows that they couldn't take the loading if the boat was in any type of a heavy sea. The only (obvious) solution is to doube up the screws by putting a new screw between two of the old ones making the old screws structurally redundant. 4). A lot of other restorations remove a significant amount of the original planking (I was heading that way myself) to ensure the hull is strong enough for continued use. I have hesitated going this way as I want to try to preserve as much of the original boat as possible as it is the timber that 'was there' and is the boat ( if you know what I mean!). The "solution" I am considering is to clean the hull timber so it is smooth and perhaps spray them a simple waterproofer like Thompsons. Next attach sheath the hull in good quality 3 or 4mm ply. YThis would be fix on this by doubling up the existing screws as mentioned above. When this is done, coating the lot in 2-4 layers of epoxy, applied with a roller. I'd use the ply for 2 reasons. 1) It can be fairly easily removed leaving the original timbers undamaged so in years to come it can all be undone. 2). It provides a dry surface, essential for epoxy adhesion. I had also planned not to white lead caulk the original timbers as it would allow them to shrink and spread without affecting the outer epoxy/ply layer. All (constructive) coments gratefully received. Thanks ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 4:50pm
| Seam caulk and then spline her which will improve the rigidity of the hull which soft caulking alone will not do. |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 20 July 2007 at 6:46pm
|
Hi Don, I would not consider using plywood sheets, you will add loads of weight and a sheet will only bend one way, also when it comes to remove it the whole lot will have deteriorated. It is a hard call on what to do and when I get advice I am always asked what I want to use the boat for and how fast. The screws breaking is due to them being 'twisted' with a screwdriver, this is not where their strength is they are obviously still stuck in the wood. I definitely would not epoxy over any rot but if you intend on using epoxy then you can bo much less particular about the finish of the wood, scraping out soft bits and filling with epoxy filler. With the sheathing the more layers of matt you add the more strength the hull will gain (as well as weight) I would not just coat it in west as this does not add strength. ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 4:56pm
|
Hi Clive,
The weight of the sheets of 3mm ply is not a great amount in the scale of things. I don't see how the sheets will deteriorate as they will be screw fastened to the hull along each plank and cannot move or twist and epoxied from the outside, therefore watertight. I was considering the ply as it protects the original timber, provides a smooth dry base to build the epoxy onto, can be removed with little damage to the original timber, adds lateral stiffness and spreads loading evenly across more planks. The heads are pinging off some of the screws if you put a blade under the head and lift. To me this means that the brass has deteriotated and it is the head that keeps the outer plank secured while it is the threaded end that holds the screw into the inner baton. Do you think that the ply, with 4 layers of epoxy rolled on will not be strong enough? Thanks Don |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 21 July 2007 at 6:07pm
|
Ah, It seem to me you need to speak to someone who knows their onions, I'd still be careful about the ply, the moisture could come from the inside or top and once in will find it hard to get out as what would happen with fiberglass, how would you finish the ply as you get closer to the front? you may also end up with strong hull sides and a strong bottom which could end up parting! I would suggest you doudled up the screws as the originals dont sound good also how many layers of matt you put on depends on the weight of each layer. ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 5:07pm
|
Thanks Clive. Doubling up on the screws was the way I thought would be best as the ply will be firmly fixed to the boat and the bottoms and sides refixed and doubled up on the frames. I'd plane/sand the ply to nothing up fwd so no gap so would fair nicely. I'd stop the ply on the sides 1" short of the deck and epoxy seal it there. I'd probably add 1" 'sacrifical trim of hardwood but not affix it with epoxy. That way, the deck & topsides would be pretty traditional. The question really is, would matting be needed if the epoxy was rolled directly onto the ply, so it's (say) 4mm thick. Or would one layer of matting onb top of the first 2 layers of epoxy be best. Regards Don |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 5:53pm
|
Hi Don, Give Wessex resins http://www.wessex-resins.com/West_System/west_system_home.htm - http://www.wessex-resins.com/West_System/west_system_home.ht m a call, here is the technical departments' number 08707701030. I doubt you would need matt if you use ply. Please speak to as many people as you can before going ahead with the ply, even done with care it will have the opposite effect to what you are aiming for. I have broken and burnt enough boats to have seen the effects,- she will look good for years, you will notice a musty smell after a few years then you'll wish you had not done it! how about taking off all the planking and then screwing half inch ply to the frames then epoxying that? you would keep the shape and she would last for years and be strong..
------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 9:07pm
|
Hi there,
Just seeing the above, just thought also contact Tony Wager on Asco, web site under links on BMPT site and contact there, he used the west system on Asco, and might be willing to give advice. Great to see this sort of thing, just what is needed to help these craft to survive. JohnK |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 10:16pm
|
Thanks Clive/JohnK, Good points, well made. Reading as much as I can about the subject, it all seems a bit confusing. If I rake out the seams and ply over, surely the seams is will provide path for water to trave into the bilges ( subject to bilge paint of course). IF I had a D/D hull with no anti foul and well painted on the inside, surely the planking would be soaking and unable to dry out ( being immersed in the water). I don't see the difference, me being a complete novice at this. All advice gladly welcome. Thanks ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 22 July 2007 at 10:41pm
|
Hi Don, You need advice off someone who knows much more than I do... two points, the water will not travel down the ridges, it will stay damp like condensation. also, wood immersed in water or mud will not rot, it is the wood which stays damp which is likely to go first. Examples are under bunks or floorboards where air cannot circulate. Quay headding- good at the top, rotten at the water line, solid as the day it went in under water and in the mud. Then you have the Mary rose- ok a bit worn by the sea but when brought out of the water she has started to decompose. this is why when you leave your wooden boat after a trip you must lift the floorboards and hatches, pull the drawers out wedge the doors open and leave windows and vents open. ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 12:46am
|
Thanks again Clive. You're only up the road so, drop down and see the boats anytime (when you get a chance). ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 7:33am
|
Hi, Just reading "A QUEST FOR SPEED AT SEA by Christopher Dawson" when I noticed that Vosper are credited with building 3 Seaplane Tenders in 1939. These boats were 40ft and powered by 3 Vosper V8's with a top speed of 24 knots. How did they differ from the BPBCo's and have any of them survived? ------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly |
Posted By: burgundyben
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 3:42pm
|
There are special tools around for removing broken screws, get some of these and refasten her with silicon bronze screws, I beleive in most cases the people that built the boat new best. It a huge job to do and that's another factor that tells you its most likely the correct one! Far too much movement in your hull of epoxy sheathing. ------------- Napier Lion engine wanted. |
dgray wrote:Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 3:55pm
| Isn't cascover sheathing still available? |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 4:43pm
|
I think the 3mm ply will bend in 2 directions OK. I'll check again. I was keen on ply as I could remove it at a later date without ruining the planking underneath ( as I would if I used finreglass matting). What I don't understand ( and I haven't explained well) is:- If a wooden boat is bilge painted and painted/antifouled on the outside then water cannot get in - or out. The same with sheathing I'd have thought unless it gets trapped between the ply and the planking, you'd have no problems. That said, you'd have the same problem on a triple diaginal hull as the outside layer is immersed in water and the timber can only dry out through the bilges. In that case it looks as if epoxying the existing planks and then building up the matting/epoxy is best as the epoxy is chemically bonded to the outer timber and leaves no gaps for the water to get in. Obviously replanking the hull is best but that gets rid of most of the original timber and makes it into a renovation rather than a restoration. Thanks everyone for the advice. I'll look at cascover and perhaps a dehumidifier.... ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 5:26pm
| Don't forget there was a Calico membrane between the plank layers |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 6:16pm
|
Good point tramontana, but it's very fragile now and long since given up being a waterproof membrane, sheathed or not. Without the membrane, surely D/D boats not sheathed will have the same problem as the outer layer is waterproof on one side ( paint/antifoul) and the inner plank has bilge paint on the other side. Wouldn't that mean that water can be trapped between the layers, sheathing or no? Regards Don ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:05pm
| You have to think of it the same as in a house, I would not paint the inside of a boat just treat it as you would a fence, although the old treatment's like Parafin mixed with oil were a lot better, I Know of a sea plane tender which while the hull was stripped out 40 yrs ago was 1/2 filled with creosote and just left for a period of time and her hull still looks great. painting the inside of a hull does not allow it to breathe which then traps the moisture |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:24pm
|
Damboline is a breatheable bilge paint made by international, it is a bit expenceive though also, it does not matter how thin the ply is, it will only bend in 1 direction. (try it with a piece of paper) ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: d-zine
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:53pm
|
Hi You can use microporous paint to allow the timber to breath. These paints are now fairly common within the building industry and are probably related to the product referred to by Clive. ------------- Advance - Runaway Quickly , Runaway Quickly |
Posted By: burgundyben
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 10:55pm
|
Renovate or restore, call it what you like, keeping original timber is nice, preserving for the long term is important. One key problem with epoxy on wood boats is that the planks move more than the epoxy and the epoxy opens up where the movement is, ie all along the caulk lines. Epoxy coatings are good for hot and cold moulded hulls and for plywood hulls, but not for double diag. If you put epoxy on a weak hull with de-zinc'd screws it wont work long term. The boat has already survived a lot longer than any ply will last. Best thing to do is re-instate the condition of what you have. IMVHO. ------------- Napier Lion engine wanted. |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 11:17pm
|
HSL 102 has been epoxied as has '81 and 1502, '102 having lasted 11 years now, what is her condition? it does not show on the sale advert... ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 11:27pm
|
Thanks for all the constructive comments. I really haven't explained this very well. The hull isn't weak, frames have been repaired/replaced where necessary. I'm also making another 100' of (roved) bilge stringers that were removed from both boats (before I bought them), so as to restore the hull's lateral integrity. Forgetting for a moment about breathable paints (thanks I didn't know about them!), the thing is, If the ply is be fixed with (probably) thousands of screws (doubling the number originally used to fix the planking), how does it really differ from an original boat ( except for the point from burgundyben about movement in a D/D hull) inso far as they both have identical (waterproof) painted bilges and painted/antifouled hulls? My question really is, Imagine 2 identical boats, one epoxy sheathed, the other not. How will the unsheathed boat 'breathe' better than a sheathed boat when they both are sitting in water? Both outer hulls are in the water and both with the exact same painted bilges. It's what really confuses me. I know that it confuses others so I hope that this epoxy/don't epoxy subject is intertesting to others (especially ST owners). Thanks everyone for your continued indulgance. ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: clive
Date Posted: 23 July 2007 at 11:55pm
|
My problem is that my knowledge is limited, so I will probably start repeating myself (again!) as for the answer to your question - I don't know, I'm confused! ------------- masbie something in the water. www.freewebs.com/masb32/ |
Posted By: burgundyben
Date Posted: 24 July 2007 at 8:00am
|
And very important to note that all three were completely refastened before the epoxy went on.
------------- Napier Lion engine wanted. |
Posted By: johnk
Date Posted: 24 July 2007 at 8:30am
|
Hi there,
Indeed, interesting point re 81,HSL 102 etc and I guess any other expoxied vessels, how are they fairing now? but MTB 102 is not expoxied and I think you would get short shrift from the team there if you suggested they do! JohnK |
Posted By: dgray
Date Posted: 24 July 2007 at 9:03am
|
I plan to refasten the hull as the ply would have a new screw between each of the originals. There is a waterproofing product used by builders called "Thompsons". Works well on wood as it penentrates deep and "Prevents water penetration whilst allowing trapped moisture to escape". If a boat epoxied with ply will be as strong as Fibreglass matting (assuming the ply is very well fixed and F/G taped at seams ) then it seems to have 2 major advantages.... 1). It is removable without really damaging the original timbers underneath. 2). You've refastened the hull with screws. It would be really interesting to hear from the BMPT regarding 1502 and how the sheathing worked out.... Richard? Cheers ------------- Don Only a number, not even a name. How shall posterity hear of thy fame? |
Posted By: tramontana
Date Posted: 25 July 2007 at 8:58am
My understanding is that the B.P. renovated boats are glassclothed which gives them that smooth finish as long as a.n.other does not push them off with the pointed end of a boathook which happened with 102.
|
Posted By: marksaab
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 6:36pm
|
Hi Don Have you seen these books : "How to restore your wooden runabout" by Don Danenberg Vol 1 & 2? The writer has some pretty harsh things to say epoxy treatments especially encapsulation type hard epoxies and over caulking old boats although CPES gets a good word. May be worth a read
------------- Only yield when you must, never "give up the ship," but fight on to the last "with a stiff upper lip!" |
Posted By: AndyS
Date Posted: 29 July 2007 at 7:27pm
|
These booka have some good points, but he is mainly dealing with smaller 'show' boats that are out of the water more than they are in the fresh water lakes. Also encapsulation has been assumed to be a cure all in the past. A quick fix it is not and a bad job over suspact substrate is unlikely to last the test of time and will usually become a problem later. Not all epoxies are equal either, there are many different formulations and resultant mechanical properties. HSL102 is Glass sheathed in epoxy resin. The repair process should be matched to the required use of the boat regarding location, weather, speed/strength, maintenance programme and any statutory requirements. It is very much horses for courses. If low impact use is expected then it is possible that the boat may still be strong enough or can be made fit for purpose with a few targetted repairs. |